Asiatica Association

On April 28 — just two days before the US blitz on Osama’s compound in Abbottabad— I interviewed Ahmed Rashid, the famous Pakistani journalist and bestselling author of Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia (2000) and Descent into Chaos (2008). Mr Rashid is based in Lahore but after graduating he spent ten years in Balochistan, the large Pakistan province bordering Iran to the west and Afghanistan to the north, in order to organize an uprising against the Pakistani military dictatorships of generals Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan (respectively the 2nd and the 3rd president of Pakistan, 1958-1969 and 1969-1971).

For over 20 years Rashid has been the correspondent for the British newspaper Daily Telegraph and the Far Eastern Economic Review. He currently writes for the The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post and other newspapers and academic journals. He is regularly called as an expert for Central Asia, Pakistan and Afghanistan by the CNN and BBC World.

Mr Rashid’s book Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia offers an invaluable insight into the Islamist militia group, which at the time of publication was virtually unknown. The book has been translated into 22 languages and has sold some 1.5 million copies since the September 11, 2001 attacks, and it was extensively used by American analysts.

In his other famous book Descent into Chaos Rashid shows the Pakistani connections between Taliban and their “safe heavens” across the Pakistan border, and highlights how much the West was culpable in creating this incendiary scenario, by supporting Islamic fundamentalism and the Taliban regime.

In this interview Rashid talks about the so called “Arab spring”, and particularly Libya, about the role of Europe in managing immigrants who are not political refugees from Africa, about the importance of solving the Israel-Palestine dispute for the Middle East and the Muslim world at large, and about the current situation in Pakistan and the possibility of a modern and moderate Islam.

Mr Rashid also talks about new initiatives by the US government that should bring Pakistan to a special understanding on the future of Afghanistan, and about a collaboration between the two countries on Afghanistan. All this two days before the US forces killed Osama bin Laden in a blitz near Abbottabad, in Pakistan, officially without the Pakistan government knowledge.

Decades of political abuse are being challenged across the Arab Muslim world. After all these uprisings, will democracy rise or will new despotic regimes replace the old ones?

It depends on regimes and above all on the situation of the nations, on the status of their institutions. In Egypt for example the military is very strong and the civil society has to take into account this element. Libya does not have strong institutions and after Gaddafi the country will be more unstable. So, it depends on the situation of the major institutions of every states.

The movement of the Muslim Brothers backs the Syrian protests: can they seize power? And what role has Islam in the uprising?

Usually the Muslim Brothers try to ply the Parliament rather being extreme. They are interested in backing institutions.

The Libyan conflict: do you think that could have been avoided?

I don’t think so. The war was not avoidable because Gaddafi went too far, and moreover people demanded for more democracy.

Therefore you think that in a way Gaddafi called for the Nato attacks in Libya?

Yes of course, I think he wrote his own death sentence by giving that incredible speech [in February 22] when he vowed in front of the world to fight on and die as a “martyr”.

The Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin asked in a press conference in Copenhagen a few days ago whether it will now be necessary to bomb all the “weird regimes” in the world, and denounced the hunting of Colonel Gaddafi. Could they be more reasons for the intervention of the military coalition in Libya? Why Libya and not for instance Chechnya, or other undemocratic countries? What role do the supplies of oil and natural gas to Western countries play in this war?

Well, I think obviously the Middle East has an enormous importance to the West because of oil, because of its strategic location, and because of the Israel-Palestinian dispute. For all these reasons Middle East has more importance than Congo, Sudan or one of these other places. Obviously oil is a very important factor in the Western military intervention, and also security in the Middle East is a very important factor. I think that we have to understand that the Israel and Palestine dispute is another very important factor, a destabilizing factor.

The daughter of Colonel Gaddafi Aisha has taunted President Obama and Hillary Clinton, saying the he has “achieved nothing”, while reproaching Mrs Clinton for not leaving her husband after he had an affair. Aisha has also provoked Obama and Clinton telling them “You never know when a rocket or a bomb might hit you”. Do you think a new attack from Islamic fundamentalists to US targets at home is possible? Another 9/11 attack?

I don’t think so, I don’t think Gaddafi has that capability, I don’t think Gaddafi has links like that to Al Qaida or other extremist groups. I don’t see these kinds of threats. I think Gaddafi is history, it’s only a question of time. He is completely isolated, internally in fact the country has so much opposition. People were even very scared but there was an opportunity to protesters in Tripoli and they did it, now people are protesting, they are very nervous about what will happen in the country but ultimately he has to go. He is historically outdated.

The Nato agreed to take command of military operations aimed at protecting civilians and providing cover for the rebels. What do you think of the coalition missions in Libya? And do you think that it is really possible to target military objectives only?

I think you are right there, it’s impossible, but the question that I see is the danger that could be from Africa or from the opposition because all is happening on the edge of Europe, on the border of Europe from Africa. Africa has thousands of angry people like in former Yugoslavia and I don’t think the West can take the risk. Also the Arab countries supported the missions and they were supported by the Arab League, they supported the initial bombing by the Western forces. The question is the alternative, meaning an Africa to be taunted by Gaddafi.

What about the “intelligent” bombing aimed at military objectives only?

Of course it is not possible to target military objectives only, civilians will die and this is not avoidable. In any war civilians die.

Italy is the bridge for illegal immigrants from the Arab world who are not political refugees. What should Italy do for these people?

I don’t think Italy has this responsibility alone, I think that it’s all of Europe responsibility. I think there should be a joint responsibility towards these immigrants and there should be a joint response and not just an Italian response. It should be a European Union response and it should be linked to development and to job creation in North Africa so that those immigrants don’t come. So far I don’t see these economic initiatives by the Europeans.

About Vittorio Arrigoni, the Italian and non Muslim volunteer — most probably a born Catholic, in fact — killed in the Gaza strip: what was the reaction of Pakistan and Afghanistan to the killing? Can Arrigoni be considered a hero by the Muslim youth?

No, it’s a sad incident but I don’t think that has been a big news or feature in Pakistan or in the Muslim world. Maybe in the Arab world, I don’t know, but not in Pakistan. There is nothing I can say about that.

Why do the USA support Israel despite its human rights violations in the Gaza strip?

I think that unfortunately it is one of the saddest tragedies for the Muslim world and for the Middle East that there has never been a fair and equitable treatment by the United States for the Palestinians.

Why?

Because of the feeling that Israel is the bastion for the American interests in the Middle East, because of the importance of the wholly coast for America, and because of the Jewish lobby in America. There are many reasons, I think that you cannot look to one reason only but there are many reasons.

Pakistan and Afghanistan: What can we do for the safety of the region, for example in the India-Pakistan relations? Is a mutual collaboration for the safety of the whole South and Central Asia possible?

I hope so. There are new initiatives now by the Americans, I hope this is bringing Pakistan to a special understanding on the future of Afghanistan, I hope there can be some collaboration between the two countries the USA and Pakistan on Afghanistan. Then we can move on to other issues like the Kashmir area and other long standing issues.

Is a politically and socially moderate Islam meeting Western standards of Human Rights possible, especially as far as women are concerned?

I think that is very possible, I mean how we did grow up as children in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. we didn’t have this extremisms then, we were modern Muslim countries who had our own Muslim culture, in Pakistan, in other countries like in the Middle East, even in Afghanistan. I was spending a lot of time in Afghanistan in the 60ies and 70ies and it was a very modern country it was not an extremist country. I am sorry but we have been through a historical period when we had not been extreme, and I think it can be done once again. But it’s depends on leadership and on understanding of political vision, and so far a lot of these countries unfortunately have not had that kind of vision.

So it depends on leadership and on what? On education — or what else?

It depends on vision, on leadership, on economic progress, on solving the historical disputes and problems like in the Middle East, like in Kashmir. We have to get rid of these problems, we have to resolve these problems so that we can start a new period.

So you think that these problems are directly linked to Muslim fundamentalists?

No, these problems are not directly linked but they encouraged this kind of extreme feeling that there is today.

A last, personal question Mr Rashid: what are you working on? Any new book, any new project?

I am just writing long pieces but I am not starting any new book. I am thinking of a new book but I am not writing it yet.